Holistic SEO for Personal Brands with Nina Gibson [Organic Growth Series] [Ep. 78]

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Here’s what to expect from this episode:

Are you looking to grow your listenership without using paid ads or paid traffic? Today we are starting the new year off strong with a new series about organic podcast growth, where I'll highlight key things to focus on to ensure that your podcast reaches as many people as possible. 

A lot of you got into podcasting because you didn't want to be on social media 24/7. But there are other things you can focus on to grow your podcast and awareness around you as an authority in your niche. So to kick this series off, we're focusing on holistic SEO. Because SEO and podcasting go hand in hand. 

Today's guest, Nina Gibson, is with us to share some really juicy stuff about SEO. She shares this idea of holistic SEO and why it's so beneficial for personal brands, as well as tips specifically for podcasters in terms of keywords, show notes, and using content pillars. We also go into the details of SEO on social platforms like TikTok and Instagram. 

Ready to hear more about holistic SEO and how you can incorporate it into your podcast and marketing?

Meet Nina:

Nina is an SEO expert, visibility coach, and corporate dropout who is crazy excited about helping entrepreneurs create an online legacy with smart and holistic SEO strategies. She's also a dog-obsessed mom to two amazing kids and lives on the southern coast of Maine.

Topics Covered:

• Holistic SEO and why it's so important for personal brands

• Nina's SEO tips for podcasters and her favorite keyword research tools

• Show notes and how to boost their SEO

• Using content pillars to show Google that you're the expert

• Nina's thoughts on TikTok and what to know about SEO

Resources mentioned:

• Google Ads Keyword Planner

• Semrush

• Shamelessly Ambitious

• Online Marketing Made Easy with Amy Porterfield

• Join the Podcasting for Educators Prep School

• Sign up for my mini-course, Guesting for Educators

• Get access to my private podcast, Guesting for Educators

Connect with nina:

• Find her on Instagram at instagram.com/ninagibson.co

• Check out her website ninagibson.co

• Download her SEO checklist at ninagibson.co/freebie

• Join her Visibility Club ninagibson.co/visibility-co-club

• Check out her shop at ninagibson.co/shop

listen to the series:

Connect with Sara:

• Book a free call to discuss how we can work together

• Book a 1:1 strategy call

• Connect with me on Instagram @podcastingforeducators

• Read the transcript for this episode:

  Sara Whittaker 0:00

  Hello and welcome to another episode of podcasting for educators. Today kicks off a new series that I'm doing all about organic podcast growth. I know that many of you listening have started your podcast, maybe you've had it for months, a year or even longer, and you're always looking for ways to grow your listenership. So for the next several episodes, I'm going to highlight key things to focus on in order to ensure that your podcast reaches as many people as possible without using paid ads or paid traffic. Now, all of these things require intention and effort, but they are strategies that will pay off big time and long term. To kick this series off, we are focusing on holistic SEO in today's episode, with all of the different platforms and trends online, it can be really hard to know where you should be spending your time. A lot of you got into podcasting because you didn't want to be on social media 24/7. And so there are other things that you can focus on in order to grow your podcast and grow awareness around you as an authority in your niche. SEO is one of those things, SEO and podcasting go hand in hand. And yet it's something that lots of podcasters don't really take into consideration. Our guests, Nina Gibson is with us to share some really juicy stuff about SEO. She shares this idea of holistic SEO and why it's so beneficial for personal brands, as well as tips specifically for podcasters. We also go into the details of SEO on social platforms like Tiktok and Instagram. Nina Gibson is an SEO expert, Visibility Coach and corporate dropout who is crazy excited about helping entrepreneurs create an online legacy with smart and holistic SEO strategies. She's also a dog obsessed mom to two amazing kids and lives on the southern coast of Maine. Let's go meet Nina. Your Podcast is a powerful tool that serves your audience and your business. But how do you manage it all bring in new listeners and convert those listeners into customers. That's what this show is all about. Welcome to podcasting for educators. I'm Sara Whitaker, classroom teacher turn podcast manager. And I'm here to help you get the most out of your show, all while making an impact on other educators. All right, we are here with Nina Nina, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for hanging out with me today.

  Nina Gibson 2:30

  Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you today.

  Sara Whittaker 2:34

  I'm excited to we've been this interview has been in the works for a while I love following you on Instagram. I hear you talk about holistic SEO, can you kind of tell us what that term means to you and why it's so important for personal brands?

  Nina Gibson 2:53

  Yeah, so I really love to talk about SEO in in from that holistic perspective for a couple of reasons. The first being at its very core, SEO is about people. And it's about creating connections. And it's about sort of bridging the gap between that person out there who has a need or a question or is looking for a service and the content that you have that satisfies that need. And I think in 2022 and beyond, so many platforms have so much content creation happening, there needs to be a way to filter through that and serve the user the best results, right? And that's sort of where SEO comes in. And you see this with Instagram and the whole tick tock SEO thing. And all of that all of these platforms are finding ways to create connections, just beyond like, you know, is this a trending audio, or how many followers someone has. And so I think looking at it holistically and really putting the user front and center, which is what Google wants you to do anyway, and thinking about all of the different platforms that have an SEO angle or you know, that utilize SEO in some way, and building your marketing out from there. And so I really like to get people to think about it beyond just like the traditional Google blog post, I have to write all this content and think about it. Where are you showing up? And how can you leverage SEO on those platforms? And how can you put the user front and center when you're doing that?

  Sara Whittaker 4:19

  Yeah, that's perfect. And I know I have been hearing so much about like, SEO and Tik Tok and now SEO on Instagram. And it's like and Pinterest like it's all these different platforms. And you're so right that at the core of it is the user and sometimes I think we get especially with all the social media platforms like we get so caught up in like the algorithm or on you know, on our website, we have our Yoast plugin, and we just want to see that green light and like it takes away from really creating that engaging content that people really want to find. So I love to, we're going to talk about like some tips for specifically for podcasters when it comes to SEO, but I'd also love to know like, how do you create? How do you go about like creating your content with SEO in mind? Like, where do you start?

  Nina Gibson 5:12

  Yeah, so I always start with keywords, always, they're like the anchor for your content and the sort of jumping off point for whatever you're going to create. And I like to start there, because it gives you an inside view into what the user is thinking. And, you know, I think keywords have become a little bit less relevant over time as Google gets more sophisticated, and other platforms too, with AI. But I still think people have ways of looking for certain content, like how do I or how to, or tips, you know, they append their searches for certain things. So I spend a lot of time doing keyword research. And I spend a lot of time typing things into different platforms and seeing what results pop up, to be honest and getting an idea of, okay, I'm typing in, you know, holistic business coach, I was just looking at these terms the other day, what kind of content is popping up? What what do I think the user is looking for when they're, you know, typing that into Google or Instagram, or even Tik Tok? And then I look at the popularity of the term how difficult it is to rank for, you know, some of that more nitty gritty. And then I, you know, I have this big bucket list, and I started thinking about, Okay, this would make a really awesome long form blog post, somebody's looking for like a checklist or a PDF, this would be a great freebie landing page, stuff like that. So but I really always start with, what are what are people actually searching for? And what kind of content is ranking for those terms? And then I go from there.

  Sara Whittaker 6:40

  Yeah, that's perfect. I've been talking a lot recently with some of the clients that I work with, and just podcasters in general about how, especially with because as a podcaster, I mean, if you're having if you're doing show notes, hopefully, once you are on your website, that is essentially blogging, it's just kind of looks different than how you view a traditional blog. But I've been talking with them a lot lately about how you know, I think most podcasters, they create their content. And then they go to write their show notes. And then they kind of maybe maybe do some keyword research where really, we should be thinking about it. The other way around, starting with that keyword, like you were just talking about, and using that to help drive your content and drive your episode topics. Because in the end, that's also going to make writing your shownotes a lot easier it's going to be it's going to make it easier to incorporate that keyword in an engaging way. And in a way that makes sense. So I am really trying that's like something that I'm really trying to lean into for 2023. Because I do that now. But I haven't always done that it has kind of been like the last thing on my list instead of the first thing on my list when I do my podcast content. And I heard you at a minute ago, you were talking about how you know Google is becoming more sophisticated. Can you verify Google does now I don't know what the right term is? Is it crawl or index audio as well? Right? Yes. Okay. Yes. So does it pick up like everything on your podcast? Or is it like, how does that work? If you know,

  Nina Gibson 8:15

  yeah, so the same way that like, tick tock is crawling, audio. Google does the same. So they're picking out? I mean, I don't know it's proprietary. They don't tell us if I've had two guests. They are like crawling it and then they're pulling out like key terms. They're probably their AI is identifying like, for this podcast, for example, like we're talking about SEO for podcasts, you know, that's going to be said multiple times my guesses, they look for patterns in terms and they're pulling out. There might be additional information on this out there. Somebody might be listening be like, that's not how it works. That would be my guess. That would be my guess is they're using AI to be able to identify themes and specific keywords and things like that. But yes, they are getting and they're getting better at it. I don't think that it's something that they've perfected. But it's absolutely something that they're doing for sure.

  Sara Whittaker 9:04

  Yeah, I just think it's so cool to kind of like follow how far we've come. I mean, a year ago, like Google podcasts weren't even like popping up in Google searches. And now they finally are, but it's crazy how quickly things can change. And especially with just like how much podcasts are evolving, and how quickly they're evolving? I think that it's just going to continue to get better in terms of search results. So can we talk a little bit about SEO for podcasts? Like, what are some of the things that podcasters should be keeping in mind when it comes to SEO? Do you have any kind of tips for us there?

  Nina Gibson 9:37

  Yeah, so you mentioned show notes 100%. And you talked about keyword research and I you know, not every single episode that you're going to do will have a keyword that makes sense, but really use keyword research to inform your topics. You know, I think sometimes we get a little bit egocentric and we assume that we know exactly what our audience wants to hear about and things like that, but And then if you actually spend some time doing keyword research and a little bit of market research in terms of other content around that topic, use that as a jumping off point. And then make sure that you're using those keywords in your titles, your episode titles, I see a lot of podcast titles that are like fluffy and touchy feely, which is great, on the one hand for evoking emotion and a response. But for search engines, you need to sort of balance it between giving the information about what the podcast is about. And you know, having somebody click through and be like, oh, I need to listen to that episode. So that would be like, honestly, making sure that you're using keyword research to inform a good percentage of your podcast episodes, and optimizing the title using those keywords in your show notes. And then also, sort of to what we were just talking about, make sure you're using that in the audio. So if like you I've sometimes listened to podcast and the title and the actual audio content, there's a disconnect there. Yes. And I'm like, wait a second, I thought this is about something totally different. So make sure that what you're actually talking about fits the title and not just what you want the title to be. Because you think that that's, you know, that that right title to have. So those would be some of my tips, and look to see, you know, what kind of other content I like to think about podcasts and audio is legacy content, video, long form content, and audio, those are all legacy types of content, right? They're going to live on and compound over time. And they're evergreen usually. So think about to like, when you're coming up with podcast topics, obviously, some things are timely, but what kind of topics are really meant to be evergreen, right? And are going to somebody searching three years from now? Will your podcast still be relevant? I always recommend that a certain percentage, like 25 to 30% of your content be really, really focused on evergreen.

  Sara Whittaker 11:44

  Yes, that's such a good tip. I know I think sometimes, especially like, in this season, as we're like approaching the holiday season, it's like so tempting to make all of our content like holiday specific, but then what happens six months down the road, like those are the episodes that that really aren't gonna gain as much traction, because they're really popular in the moment. And it's fine to have some of those, I think, but I totally agree. Like, overall, try and make those topics Evergreen. And like, yes, yes, yes, about actually doing that keyword research. Because I know I've been guilty of this. And I know a lot of people are like, you think you know what people want to hear. But then you do that keyword research, you look at your data, look at your downloads and see like, oh, that episode that I was so excited about is like one of my lowest downloaded episodes. Clearly, that's not what people want to hear. So yeah, digging into that as is key. Do you have a favorite keyword research tool?

  Nina Gibson 12:41

  I would say if you're doing any kind of Google ads, you have access to Google's keyword planner, start there, because it's Google's own data, right? Yeah, but my favorite from there is SEMrush. And their keyword research tool is super robust. It gives you the keyword difficulty, which is basically from like zero to 100, how hard it would be to rank, it gives you the intent behind the keyword. So there are four different types of user intent. So you can understand like, is this person looking for information? Or are they looking to buy something, and that's something else as well for so like, not all keywords are the same, right? Some people like keywords are purely informational. Some are transactional navigational, like, you will be surprised how many people type in Facebook website into Google like really? Oh, oh, yeah. You know, and so making sure you understand. And SEMrush is really great for that. And they also give you like, questions, and the prepositions and all of that. So you can start with like a root keyword and then build off from there. So it's my favorite tool. And plus, the platform itself is super robust. There are all kinds of other things you can do on it. So it's on the pricey side. That's the only drawback but I think if you are serious about content marketing, and building a podcast audience, or any kind of website audience, then it's definitely worth the investment.

  Sara Whittaker 14:01

  Yeah, absolutely. I have not used that one yet. I always see it come up in the results, because I've used Uber Suggest is usually what I will go to first is it is sem rush. Is that a, like monthly fee? Or is it a one time is it's a monthly fee? Yep. Okay, okay. Yeah, very cool about the intent. I've never heard about that, or, like seen that before. So that's a really cool feature. Now, in terms of like, level of difficulty, like, what's the sweet spot there? Or does it kind of depend? It kind of depends. So

  Nina Gibson 14:33

  it really depends on Are you an established website, you know, have you been around for a long time? Do you have a higher authority and trust level in the eyes of Google than say, somebody who's just starting out? Their website is new, I mean, so it depends a little bit I like to say anything like 30 and below in terms of keyword difficulty, unless, you know, you're like an Amy Porterfield. Then you can probably, like go after those higher and more competitive terms, but also like Get a sense, right? Like, if you, even if it's harder to rank for, but you see, there's a gap in the content that's ranking and you're like, you know, what I might, what I'm gonna put out is really valuable, and I think needs the user need better, you know, you might have a better chance of ranking. So don't let that be the only thing. But also, it's important to set expectations. And I think the number one thing to remember is SEO is a long term strategy. It is not going to move your needle in 30 days, 60 days. I mean, there are of course exceptions. But I think where people sometimes get hung up is that we want instant gratification. I just spent $10,000 on this mastermind I want instant gratification, I'm doing tick tock, I want an instant audience, you know, and I think that that's where people sort of, not I don't want to use the word fail, because I don't like that. But that's where we falter a little bit is, you know, oh, we're really excited. And then two months later, we give up. It's those bloggers from like, 2012, who are still making 1000s of dollars of residual income every month on a blog post they wrote 10 years ago. So that's sort of how you have to think about it is, if I'm really like, invested in growing my business and building an online legacy of content, it's not going to happen overnight. So be patient.

  Sara Whittaker 16:12

  Yes, that's, that's so good. And the same goes for podcasting. Like, I know, so many people who have, I mean, I just think we're so like numb to these huge numbers on Instagram, and then they start a podcast, and they expect their numbers to translate to the podcast. And like, that's not how it works. And it does take time. Like, I always think that you need to go into podcasting to at least stick with it for a year. And then see where you are in a year because it takes time to build that audience and really kind of clean up your messaging and figure out who you are a podcaster and all of that. So yeah, I I completely agree. I think SEO and podcasting just have a lot of overlap in terms of how they are organic marketing methods. So circling back to shownotes, do you have any advice on important things that need to be in shownotes? That would kind of boost the SEO? Overall?

  Nina Gibson 17:15

  Yeah. So I mean, I think the number one thing is making sure that you are including the keyword, I'm a big fan of like, including audio transcriptions or eventually turning that transcription into a full form blog post, I think there's an enormous amount of value in that. But making sure that you're using the keyword that you're targeting in your podcast in the show notes. And then structuring them. I mean, I think I like to think about it like a traditional blog post, you sort of like have your intro, obviously, you go through like the key components that you hit, wrap up, make it easy to read useful, it's people are coming to shownotes, to scan to see if they're interested in listening to the full episode, right? Or in the search results. So if somebody's typing something in, they're like, Ooh, yes, this sounds like something I need to listen to. So think about that when you're crafting it. And I think, you know, it's hard sometimes with show notes, because they're shorter. So they're not like as meaty. But you know, if there's another episode, like link out, you know, make sure that you're obviously you're going to link to your episode, but don't be afraid to link out to like, Hey, you want to learn more about the podcast host, this is my about page, things like that. So you're creating that interlinking and letting Google know, hey, all of these pages that are interlinked together are important, because I think sometimes shownotes kind of you slap them up, and then we forget about them, but making sure that they're part of your entire website content strategy. So the interlinking is really important. And not just to your podcast pages, but also like about etc. So,

  Sara Whittaker 18:41

  hmm, okay. Oh, that's a good tip to also link to other pages on your website. Yes, yeah. And then that makes me think of, like backlinks. Like, that's why it's so great to guest on other podcasts, because hopefully, if they also have show notes, they can link back to you as well. Exactly. All right. podcasters that you know, how many details come with producing just a single episode and using the right tools is the key to creating high quality episodes in the most efficient way possible. One of my absolute favorite tools I use is Zen caster. I have tried so many different platforms for recording my guests interviews and Zen caster is the one I've stuck with for so many reasons. It always gives me the highest quality audio because there is nothing worse than recording an episode that you can't use because of bad quality. It's so easy for you and your guests. Even the not so tech savvy ones. All they have to do is click a link and we start recording boom done. Plus, the video is crystal clear. So you can repurpose your solo and your guest episodes on social media and on YouTube. Oh, and it gives you a transcript of your episodes. You can go to Zen caster.com/pricing and use my code educators you'll get 30% off your first three months of Zen caster professional, I want you to have the same easy experiences I do for all of my podcasting and content needs, it's time to share your story. So go to Zen caster.com/pricing, that ZENC a s t r.com/pricing. And use my code educators for 30% off. That's educators, all lowercase letters, the link will also be in the show notes.

  Sara Whittaker 20:32

  Okay, can we touch a little bit on the idea of content pillars? I've heard you talk about this on Instagram as well. Can you kind of for anybody who might not be familiar with that term? First of all, like, what are content pillars? And how do you use them?

  Nina Gibson 20:48

  Yeah, so content pillars are basically several pieces of content around one core topic. They're all similar, but not the same. And they all relate back to a broader topic. So the one that I use all the time is business coaching, because it's an easy example. And the reason why it's important for SEO is because Google wants to see you as the expert, the authority and as a trusted source, right for the topic. So creating content pillars allows you to create tons of supporting content around your core expertise, or your core two or three pillars. So if you're a business coach, obviously, you want to show Google and other platforms, hey, I'm an authority in the business coaching space. So you would create several pieces of content to support that. And it's also content pillars ultimately helped me creating multiple pieces of content, similar, so for example, you would write, you would have an about page that talks about you as a business coach, that's one piece of pillar content. And then you might have a long form blog post that talks about, you know, what is business coaching, that's your second. And then from there, you would break it down into sort of sub content pillars, like, why female entrepreneurs need to hire a business coach, or top five questions to ask a business coach before hiring them. And then from there, you could break it down even further. And all of these pieces of content are about business coaching, right? But they're all different. And they all link back to that supporting piece of content, which is usually your about page in that first piece you wrote on the general topic of what is business coaching. And you can create this for, like I said, multiple content, content pillars that you have, most of us use that for social media for Instagram, but I don't think people often think about them for your website, too, right. And I think people just right, I see this a lot with entrepreneurs who are super successful in the social space, and are like, Okay, I just started building my website off of Instagram and Tiktok, and my audience, and they just sort of write about whatever they want to write about without a content strategy. Yeah. And content pillars help anchor that strategy. So next thing, you know, you've created 10 pieces of content, six months worth of blog posts, and they all come back and say, I am the expert, when it comes to business coaching and female entrepreneurs. So it's one of my favorite strategies, because it's a super effective. And it also, I think, sometimes people are like, I don't know what to write about, like, what am I even supposed to write about? You know, and that helps take that sort of anxiety out of that a little bit. And when you see how easy it is to map, and the beautiful thing is, for a lot of topics, it's kind of endless, right? There's so many different things you can you know, a day in the life of a business coach a day in the life of a holistic business coach, like there's so many different things that you can do with it, and keep on adding and compounding. So it's one of my favorite things to teach and talk about, because I think it's one of the the most overlooked things when it comes to content marketing for SEO.

  Sara Whittaker 23:44

  Yeah, absolutely. I've, I've heard about and I try to use content pillars for like, you know, social media for Instagram posts, okay, these are my content pillars. These are the posts I'm gonna make. But I've never thought about it as like a way to be strategic in terms of SEO as well. Like, I've never thought about how that's going to kind of make you that authority figure in the eyes of Google and other search engines. So yeah, that's awesome. Do you have like a recommendation for, like, how many content pillars you should kind of focus on?

  Nina Gibson 24:17

  Yes. So I think Google recently came out with an update called the helpful content update. And this was basically to go after people who are creating content for the sake of rankings, versus being, you know, establishing your expertise. So I would say don't if you're a business coach, you know, don't start all of a sudden talking about vacation planning with kids, right? So, you know, obviously, that's something great for social media, hey, you know, you can kind of throw that in there. But focus on like, Okay, I'm a business coach for female entrepreneurs. I focus on productivity time management, and I don't know pick us up, pick a third one in there, right. So stick to what you're really Doing an offering and what your core expertise is, and not sort of like, Ooh, you know what I also really liked to craft. And I think that I could rank on this crafting post, I'm going to just throw that into my website. Yeah, yeah, Google doesn't want you to do that. They really want you to focus on your core expertise and what you have to offer. And I mean, what the name is, right, helpful content. Yeah, make sure that whatever you're creating is actually useful. Right. And so I think sometimes, in this desire to get rankings and things like that people, like, I'm just gonna slap up this content. And it's, you know, it's gonna drive traffic. And a lot of like, media houses and things like that. Do that, because they're based on impressions, right? They get advertisers and things like that. But for personal brands, and entrepreneurs and small business owners, you really need to be selective. So unless that content is really adding value to the person who lands on it, put your energy and time elsewhere. Right. So I think that alleviates a little pressure to you don't have to create tons and tons and tons of content, you need to create consistent, helpful, useful content.

  Sara Whittaker 26:02

  Yes, oh my gosh. And that just like as you're talking, I'm like, I mean, talk about like holistic SEO, holistic marketing, like it just all ties together. I mean, if you can really get clear and specific on these content pillars, that that you're focusing on, I mean, that it's like a ripple effect, because then you're tightening up your messaging, you are getting more specific on who you're talking to. And that really matters for your website. And for your podcast content. Like I have definitely seen some people who start a podcast, maybe they're a blogger, and they start a podcast, and they're just talking about all of these different topics. And then they're not really creating this loyal following. Because, you know, maybe they're talking about motherhood one day, and the next day, they're talking about travel, and the next day, they're talking about cooking. And it's like, that's not keeping people coming back. It's not keeping the same people coming back. So it all just is so interconnected,

  Nina Gibson 27:02

  completely. And then you'll also like you show up for the same thing in multiple places. And I think that that can be really powerful. Oh, this person just showed up on Tik Tok, and also Instagram. And hey, I did a search for like a similar topic. And their blog post showed up, oh, they must really know what they're talking about. And so I think, you know, that takes time to build that type of online authority. But that is 100% Part of that ripple effect and can be really, really powerful. So, yeah,

  Sara Whittaker 27:28

  yeah, absolutely. It's just like when you're in like a Facebook group, and somebody's like, Oh, I'm looking for an SEO expert. And like, you get tagged, it's like, yes. Now you know, that you've like, you've really built this brand that people know you for a specific reason, which is just like the best feeling ever.

  Nina Gibson 27:45

  It really is. It really is. Yeah. Okay.

  Sara Whittaker 27:49

  We've mentioned tick tock a little bit. I am not yet on tick tock. How about you? Are you want to?

  Nina Gibson 27:55

  I haven't, I have a massive ish. I have a massive love hate relationship with tick tock, if I like. And I have to be careful because I don't want people to think that I'm like, bashing it. I'm not i just i there. I have a lot of issues with the platform. And I have some thoughts about short form video and all of those things as well. So I'm ish on it. I haven't posted in quite a while but yeah, yeah, I go on there sometimes. But every time I'm on there, I feel like I'm in a casino, you know? And I'm like, where did the time go? Why do I feel like I've just had like four run punches and hours, just like when I have any money yet? Exactly. Like nothing good has happened. So you know, I, I have a lot of thoughts about tick tock.

  Sara Whittaker 28:39

  Yeah, that's kind of how I felt about clubhouse when clubhouse was a thing. Like I haven't joined tick tock yet. I think about it on the daily but it's like, I don't know, I'm like trying in this crazy online world to like protect my energy to some degree and like, I don't know, making that switch. It just feels like another time suck like I don't even have I don't even have the Tick Tock app. So I have not quite gone down that rabbit hole. But I think about it all the time. Okay, I'd love to know if you're willing to share like, what are your thoughts on short form video? Yeah, so

  Nina Gibson 29:17

  I think short form video is amazing. I think tick tock is close to peeking, to be honest. But I'm not i This isn't my original idea. There are a lot of like analysts and people in the industry who have said that. I think that the expectation that short form video can do all of your marketing for you, I think is a lofty One. And I think that it's unfortunate it's there's a really, really big difference between somebody who's selling somebody else's beauty products through user generated content or who's like, you know, selling or posting about different brands and things like that, versus you trying to establish yourself as an expert and authority in a certain space and I think there's a big disconnect between what tick tock ACC is in their objectives. They want to be a digital mall, they don't want you to leave the app they want you to purchase, they're buying up, you know, fulfillment warehouses across America, there's a very specific goal here for tick tock. And I think that there's a little bit of, I'm not gonna use the word disillusionment, but a little bit of a disconnect between, like everybody who's on there and what they're trying to do. And so, I think that as a marketer, I've been in digital marketing for so long that I just, you know, I was there when Facebook released ads, we were like, ooh, and, you know, so like, I think that for me, I'm, it's not that I'm pessimistic. I just think that tick tock has very specific goals, and they will do whatever they need to meet those goals, because that's what they're there to do. Right. And I think, I do think to at some point, the things that make tick tock so successful, are gonna get reined in a little bit by the US government. Because they do us so many different things. I mean, we willingly give them and this is true for Mehta, too, but to talk, I think, takes it to the next level. And I think at that point, you know, at some point that will get reined in a little bit. And you've even seen it in the last six months, like the ability to go viral six or nine months ago versus now. Yeah. And so I think, you know, I've seen like a lot of like influencers on Tik Tok be like, my, my videos aren't getting any views, like the same thing you see on Instagram. And I'm just like, so I personally, this is like, I'm, I'm probably gonna listen to this podcast in a year and be like, Oh, my God, I can't believe I said that. But I, I actually think that long form content is going to have like a resurgence. I think that like SEO is gonna see kind of like a, kind of like, the QR code during COVID. I feel like that's gonna happen with SEO. Because so much content is being created right now. Like so much content is being overload there overload and I think people are gonna like, there's going to be a tipping point, just like there was a tipping point that sort of catapulted that popularity. And of course, I'm 40. So maybe a 20 year old is listening to this and being like, nope, and nope, the right, from my perspective and my client base. I definitely and the people that I work with, I think that, yeah, so that's sort of my feeling on shortform. I think it's an amazing asset. And I think it's an amazing product and your overall marketing. And I do think at some point, depending on what you do, it needs to be a component, but I don't think it's the end all be all.

  Sara Whittaker 32:28

  Yeah, I That makes total sense. And I'm with you. So you're saying that putting your time and energy into creating great content through podcasting might be a better use of your time?

  Nina Gibson 32:39

  I yeah, I do, I think, because here's the thing, you know, tick tock, maybe maybe somebody finds your video from six months ago, and all of a sudden goes viral. People talk about that, right? It's the exception, not the rule. And again, so much content is being created on that platform, the ability to stand out, and if you are, and here's the truth that nobody wants to admit on either Instagram or Tiktok. Not all of us are good at video. Yeah. And so there, do you know what I mean? This is totally I see. I'm like, This is not everybody's jam. It's not mine. I'm never gonna get up there and be like, Oh, my gosh, and people are gonna be like,

  Sara Whittaker 33:15

  ooh, that is not me there. No, exactly.

  Nina Gibson 33:19

  So like, I think that there's this, you need to lean into your strengths. And there are people who are amazing at podcasting, we're never going to be the next tick tock thing. And that's okay. Right. And so the, I guess, from what from my vantage point, if I were a Pinterest brand, travel home, and garden beauty, I would 100% be investing time in tick tock because of that discovery. If I'm a service provider, like myself, I'm investing in legacy content like podcasting and things like that, you know, so, yeah, and that's just my opinion, and a year from now, I might be like, you know, what, actually, but where I see this space right now, that's, that's what I'm recommending to my clients. And I think a lot of it's industry specific. If you're in a in a, you know, a Pinterest brand, like you need to be on to our Recipes Cooking. Absolutely. But long form content will never not have a place in my opinion.

  Sara Whittaker 34:12

  Right? Yeah, no, I'm totally with you. And there's something else to be said that like going viral or even, you know, getting 1000s of views on a video. What does that even really mean? Like its likes or views? But is that translating to any kind of actual ROI or any actual sales? Usually no, like a lot of the likes are coming from people who are literally not your ideal customer or client or any of that so yeah, I mean, and hey, if you're on if you're listening and you're like Tiktok has skyrocketed my business then that is awesome. And go you I am somebody who is probably never going to be fully invested in video and that's why a lot of people get into podcasting is because They don't want to spend their time on video. So you gotta lean into your strengths, like you said. Yep,

  Nina Gibson 35:05

  exactly, totally. And I think that understanding the ROI, I think if people were actually honest about how much time they input into social media versus the actual output for their business and the bottom line, yes, I think that there would be, and I've talked about this on my podcast before, too, there's a need to understand if you're spending 10 hours a week on a platform, what are you getting back from it? And sometimes there's just a foundational building, right when you're new. But I think as you grow up, grow and build, you really need to understand where, where, where's my sweet spot? And where's my target audience actually spending time not just where I want to spend time? I think that's

  Sara Whittaker 35:39

  important, too. Yeah. Oh, gosh, it's so important. So now, real quick, just while we're on this topic of tick tock so like, how is tick tock SEO a thing? Like, they're like, keywords are a thing? Full Force? 100%? Okay.

  Nina Gibson 35:54

  100%. So I think, if you notice, like maybe a month ago, time is like a vortex. So I don't even know. But they changed the captions from like, 250 to, like 2200 characters. Oh, wow. And, I mean, again, this goes back to there's so much content being created on that platform, they need ways to filter through it. So I think that tick tock is absolutely leveraging the content aspects of SEO in terms of keywords, what you put in like the stickers, what you actually say in the audio, because they crawl the audio is important. And of course, what you put in the caption, so all of those things tick tock SEO is absolutely a real thing. I would say it's not like true SEO like we know it, because true SEO has multiple components, right? I would say they're taking a facet of SEO, specific to keyword research and like content optimization and utilizing that on the platform. And that's the same for Instagram. So looking at what people are like typing into, like Instagram, the app and searching for 100%, like pop that up. And I'm pointing this out, because everybody's like discovery, I'm like, but they see how many people are typing things into the search bar, and looking for keywords to find, like searching for keywords to find topics. So it's not just all like cold discovery, people are like, Oh, I'm interested in this. So I think that's really important to remember that tick tock is seeing that user behavior, and leveraging it. So type stuff in, see what people are searching for, and use keyword research tools to get an idea. And then make sure that you're targeting that in the caption hashtags, all of that. It's definitely a thing.

  Sara Whittaker 37:35

  Okay. And so hashtags are still a thing, just to gosh, like, come on, and controversial tie down the internet, I find a lot of like, when I do like a static post, I mean, so many people are looking at it because of hashtags or so it says so.

  Nina Gibson 37:53

  Exactly. I, my my take on it. And this is an observational, I've no confirmation on this is that they're using hashtags as keywords. Yeah. So it's, I think it's just it used to be three or four years ago, you know, work from home life, or, you know, like that kind of stuff where it's more descriptive versus now I think people are using hashtags too, as identifiers, like this content is for solopreneurs, or this content is for podcasters. And so I think that's how the platforms are looking at them and serving up content, as you know, based on that versus what's a trending hashtag. I think that's where the delineation has happened is that it's not like a trending thing anymore. It's an informant and get tagging tagging. Yeah, exactly. So I find them I think they work really well still and for tick tock what I've seen, yes, they use them as keywords to and informational. So absolutely use them and test it right. Text everything. Yeah,

  Sara Whittaker 38:49

  absolutely. Yeah. Because what works for one person might not work for another especially from business to business. So that is perfect. Nina, this has been so awesome. I feel like I've learned a lot. Is there anything that like we didn't touch on that? You're that you were like hoping to say that you want to call her again?

  Nina Gibson 39:07

  I'm glad we got into Tik Tok because I wanted to get into Yeah, so no, I think we touched on everything.

  Sara Whittaker 39:12

  Okay, awesome. Now I've got a couple of quick questions that I asked all of my guests just for fun. And then we will wrap this up. So the first one is if you could interview one of your favorite childhood stars, just for fun, who would it be?

  Nina Gibson 39:29

  Can it be a cartoon cuz

  Sara Whittaker 39:31

  i Yeah, okay. Love that.

  Nina Gibson 39:35

  I mean, it's a Disney character. It would 100% be either Belle or the Little Mermaid. Oh, I love that. Just so to age myself. I saw the little mermaid when it came out in theater. Same it was my first movie. Yeah. So he was like, I remember seeing and being like, Oh my God. Yeah. So

  Sara Whittaker 39:55

  an icon.

  Nina Gibson 39:56

  Yes, absolutely. And I know the words To that entire movie and daughters like mummy when you know all the words, because I've watched it a lot.

  Sara Whittaker 40:05

  Yeah. Oh, that's perfect. She was always my favorite my daughter was. That's who she was for this Halloween and it made me love Abby. Yes. Totally. Yes. That's great. Okay. And then do you have any favorite podcasts that you're listening to right now could be for business or for fun?

  Nina Gibson 40:22

  Yeah, so I'm shamelessly ambitious.

  Sara Whittaker 40:26

  I don't know. Yeah, it's

  Nina Gibson 40:28

  ash McDonald's podcast. She's a holistic business coach. She's actually a therapist and business coach. So it's a very cool if you're into woowoo at all, or you're just into like, the more personal development side of your business. I love her podcast. And she just did something called like the momentum project where she did a podcast episode every day for 30 days. Wow. Which was like, yeah, so she I always listen to hers. And let's see what who else? Yeah, I listen to Amy Porterfield podcast just because like, yeah, she's like, Yeah, I doesn't.

  Sara Whittaker 40:59

  I kind of like pick and choose through her episodes saying here. So yeah, I'm like, ooh, this

  Nina Gibson 41:03

  looks interesting. And I haven't listened to any in a while. But anything like true crime ever since I've had kids, I have a harder time with true crime. Yeah, there was this one about like this New Mexico disappearance. That was so good. This was a couple years ago now. And I like I check it constantly for updates, because they update you on the case. Yeah. And I'm like, ooh, if I can remember the name, I'll send it to you. It's in my downloads. So anything like that, but I have to like pick and choose it. It needs to be like no child disappearances or things like

  Sara Whittaker 41:32

  that. I know, differently. When you're a parent. Totally, that there has to be like, you know, did

  Nina Gibson 41:37

  she kill him for the money or?

  Sara Whittaker 41:40

  Yes, I know. Yeah. Well, send me Yeah, send me that one that you just mentioned, because I love shows like that. And I feel like I have a hard time finding, like, you know, kind of like a series like a big Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Awesome. Well, let us know where people can find you online.

  Nina Gibson 41:57

  So people can find me at my website, Nina Gibson, Darko, or on Instagram as same handle Nina Gibson Dotco. And yeah, I if you find me on Tik Tok, I'll be impressed. But those are the two main places that you could find me and where I spend time.

  Sara Whittaker 42:14

  That's perfect. And do you have like anything that you want to promo?

  Nina Gibson 42:18

  Yeah, so I have a digital marketing and visibility membership called visibility Co. And this is we cover SEO in depth on a monthly basis, but not just SEO, all things digital marketing. So Pinterest, Google ads, social ads, all of these things. It launched in September, got an amazing group of women. And it's ongoing enrollment. And it's been amazing so far, and I love it. So I would love to invite your audience to join if you are interested in accountability and connection and coaching when it comes to all things SEO and digital marketing. That is the place.

  Sara Whittaker 42:54

  Awesome. That sounds amazing. I'm gonna check that out. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been really fun to connect with you and I just really appreciate you being here.

  Nina Gibson 43:05

  Awesome. Thanks so much. This was great.

  Sara Whittaker 43:08

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. To keep this conversation going connect with me on Instagram at podcasting for educators. I'm always looking for an excuse to talk about podcasting. If you're looking for support and launching, managing or growing your podcast, check out my online course the podcasting for educators prep school at podcasting for educators.com/prep school. I'll see you here next time.

More about Podcasting for Educators:

Podcasting for Educators is the podcast for TpT authors and other online educators. It's a show that will help you get your podcast in front of those who need it most - teachers, counselors, literacy specialists, SLPs, parents, and more! Each week, Sara Whittaker and her guests will share top tips and actionable strategies that you will need in order to launch, manage, and grow your podcast. You’ll learn how to leverage your show to build long-lasting relationships with your audience and promote your TpT resources, courses, and memberships, all while providing valuable and accessible content!

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